Comments: Will men be allowed to vote in 100 years?

Will men be allowed to vote in 100 years?

Question: The past 100 years have witnessed a revolution in women's rights. Only 100 years ago women were not allowed to vote. Today, they hold important positions in all aspects of government. Although women are still a minority in these positions, many believe that women's gains will accelerate, and that they will thereby displace men as the primary sex when it comes to wielding power. Others disagree. What do you think? Imagine the world of 2104 - 100 years from now. A national election is to be held in November. A man wishes to vote. Is he allowed to?
Created by: MLKemp at 05:56:36 AM, Thursday, July 29, 2004 EDT

Comments

Once there is a female president, there will be a re-definition leadership qua;ities, and the bar will be raised to a higher level. The future will see a female population with with a monopoly on higher education, a change which is already in progress. At a certain point women will gain exclusive access to the institutions which develop informed and educated decision makers. The male vote will become unimportant.

GailJul 29 2004 11:51am

Gail, I don't argue with you about the trends in favor of women. But how will women take away men's voting rights and will men attempt to oppose that effort or even try to turn the clock back in men's favor?

MLKempJul 29 2004 1:17pm

The increasing majority of eligible voters will be female. This will enable women to get things done through the democratic process. Revising the rules of voter registration and eligibility will be considered business as usual

GailJul 29 2004 9:27pm

I think the scenario of exclusively female enfranchisement is very unlikely. It assumes that men will consent to their loss of power, and that women want all the power, neither of which I think are true. Even if it happens, it will create a very unstable society, possibly to women's disadvantage - a disenfranchised male population will seek power in other ways. Men deprived of autonomy and meaninful social status will be sullen, aggresive, and hard to control, unless they are emasculated psychologically or even physically - and I shudder to think what kind of social engineering might be required to achieve that! And we'll still need armies and police forces, which I can't imagine being exclusively female: does anyone think depriving armed males of a political voice is a good idea? If there is any change in equality over the next 100 years it's more likely to disenfranchise women again.

AnonymousJul 30 2004 10:01am

Removing men from voting is not a democratic process. This question is about some man who is obsessed with being dominated by women. He probably liks whips.

AnonymousJul 30 2004 11:29am

It seems like a crazy idea at the present time, but things change. Voting rights could be ammended a little at a time over a long period.

ChrisAug 01 2004 10:39pm

Nobody will be losing any right to vote, that's absurd! However, governor Arnold was elected on the strength of the 20 something male vote, who apparently were voting for some terminator fantasy instead of the real man. That is sad and as a male, I find it embarrassing. Maybe as women take over the reins of power they should investigate some voting privileges of men.

AnonymousAug 02 2004 7:54am

The fact is that if men can't make informed decisions, their vote is no longer a positive contribution. Sometimes restricting the privileges of a few improves things for the rest of us.

DawnAug 03 2004 6:54am

Plus it has been proven men lie 3 times more than women. If men are dishonest by nature, why should they be able to influence government?

BarbAug 12 2004 10:37am

Over time government office will become a career choice of women. It will not seem as important to men to be involved in the process as long as it is being handled. Gradually, men will give it up without much noise.

PamAug 17 2004 7:14am

I don'y envision a never ending string of female presidents after the first one but if countries like India and Pakistan can elect female PM's, let alone England and your great friend Israel, when the hell is the US going to get around to it? I don't like Bush but in a perverse way, I won't mind if he wins in Nov because the Democrats might seriously look into running a woman against whoever succeeds Bush. They might have run a token woman against him this time because he appeared invincible a year ago but they didn't and hopefully that means they consider their potential female candidates too strong to sacrifice. In retrospect, it's a shame they didn't because Bush certainly appears vulnerable now and that's only against Kerry. The States lags too far behind most democracies when it comes to female representation in government.

a maleAug 19 2004 2:25pm

The Democrats are going through the motions with no serious intention of getting Kerry elected. They are ready to nominate Hillary Clinton on 2008. They have a realistic chance of winning.

DanAug 23 2004 6:57am

I don't mind the many posts by women here expressing their view that men are almost animalistic because it's difficult to argue. They are too far ahead scholastically and such. What I do find a bit disconcerting is the determination to reduce our rights even to the point of restricting our voting privileges. They argue that it will benefit everyone. Maybe they're right but it's still uncomfortable to think of myself as being sub-feminine.

AnonymousOct 08 2004 7:02am

But since women have acheived scholastic superiority, doesn't it also make sense that women are more qualified to make informed decisions? Why should men be included in the decision making process if they don't have the capacity to make an equal contribution to the electoral process? Do we really benefit from allowing man to retain voting rights just to give the appearance of fairness? Do men really want to be propped up as "token voters"?

SallyOct 29 2004 5:11am

With all the legal disputes surrounding this election, major election reform will no doubt become necessary. Who knows where that could eventually lead. You could get your wish someday.

SeanOct 30 2004 10:53pm

Women are certainly more qualified to make informed, rational decisions. Perhaps we don't benefit with male voting privileges but have we reached the point where it is a detriment? Sally, if you and I were and item and you told me you were actually offended by my right to vote, I wouldn't vote.

AnonymousOct 31 2004 7:54am

If it ever gets to the point when women consider men token voters then I wouldn't want the vote.

AnonymousNov 01 2004 10:10pm

Even in this last election many experts pointed out that the female vote is what decides the results. Would it really make that much difference to eliminate the half that is becoming irrelevant?

ToniNov 10 2004 11:36pm

Actually it's less than half. More women vote than men.

AnonymousNov 11 2004 12:43am

If that is true, we better hope women don't ever become united in a quest for power because there is nothing to stop them from gaining absolute power.

StanNov 11 2004 1:56pm

It seems a bit too radical to take away all male voting privileges just because we can't compete with women scholastically. Women want men to feel ashamed of ourselves because on average we're less intelligent. What about the men who do complete college?

AnonymousNov 11 2004 2:44pm

If the female majority keeps growing, male college students may become a scarcity. It could eventually become impratical and awkward to accomodate males at that level of education. It is more logical to advance those with the best chance of success.

JanNov 13 2004 9:28pm

Do women realize how discouraging their emerging attitudes are for men? It's increasingly difficult for men to strive for a college education and a rewarding job as it is. Then to hear women infer that they resent our presence in higher institutions because they feel they can achieve even more without us slowing things down, it makes a lot of guys quit trying. Now some women here are saying that men don't even have the capacity to vote!? It's one thing to prevent men from holding office but I hope women don't surge so far ahead of men that society deems it beneficial to remove male voting privileges. I'm beginning to think it might happen.

maleNov 14 2004 3:06pm

It should happen if it puts the decision making process in the hands of the best educated and most informed members of society. It does not make sense to hold back progress just to spare some egos from being hurt.

JulieNov 16 2004 12:05am

It sounds like, as always, men are on the defensive because women are making strong, compassionate arguments in this case, favouring the restriction of male voting rights. Yet another study came out recently, this one says that females in grade 8 are at the same academic level as grade 11 males and as always, the gap is continuing to widen. Maybe it is almost time to consider raising the age for males to vote from 18 to 21 or 25. I think women can find that progressive because it rewards them for their intelligence and maturity but it doesn't punish males. All it does is gives us a few extra years to develop our thoughts.

another maleNov 17 2004 7:41pm

Everyone knows males in the age group you are referring to are busy developing thoughts about only one thing;sex. Males never fully mature for that reason.

BrenNov 17 2004 8:39pm

It's humbling reading some of these posts. I know a lot of women think men are stupid but I didn't know they think we are too stupid to vote. I think next time there is an election, I'm going to be too embarrassed to vote.

AnonymousDec 26 2004 10:08am

I don't think men will be allowed to vote, drive or own property in 100 years

modernmanApr 10 2005 3:59am

All of you are certifiable proof that America is finished whether men or women run it? I'm going to McDonald's.

George W BushApr 25 2005 5:45pm

If women are deciding the elections and are the only votes that matter, then you are to blame for Bush being the Whitehouse, where your rights to abortion are now in severe jeopardy.

RandySep 14 2005 11:27am

When women get the power, their cruelty equals that of men, or even exceeds the cruelty of men.

AnonymousApr 03 2006 11:04pm

Anonymous said men once they had been disenfranchised would become sullen,aggresive and hard to contol.Surely they are that now.Once Women rule men will be happier and more content less aggressive and more helful and attentive.Once all males have been brought up and educated in a Female Supremacist Society,home and education system why would they be hard to control.Those that were would need the services of behavioral councilors and the Women running Male Re-Education Centres.These would be 6 week courses explaining to them what the new situation is and how to behave amongst decent Woman fearing society. Males genitalia will be under the control of their Mothers,Aunts,Wives,Girlfreinds,Grandmothers,Bosses.Once this aspect of their lives is controlled their ever present proclivity to masturbate will be curtailed.Once the penis is under control the male will be also.If he wants his organs to receive sexual fullfilment he will have to behave and show he is a caring mindful obedient male.We as males must submit to the contol of our sexuality so that the abomination of rape,patriarchy,phalocentrism,male violence can be controlled. What would happen if the male member is not brought under control.Either male violence as now or alternatively the castration of males to remove their testosterone filled vision of life. Enforced male chastity is the only way forward.

Lou RollsApr 30 2006 8:07am

to the discouraged "male". I honestly believe women's superior make up will lead us to a time when men will lose rights and fall way behind. Prepare to serve your superiors in the manner they choose. Female power is leading toward male slavery in one form or another.

STTGMay 27 2006 6:34pm

STTG you are a very sensible person for a male but we don't want to enslave you.You will either voluntarily enslave yourselves to a Woman or at the least respect and obey her.The future will I think bring about the disenfranchisement of the male sex and the prohibition of males as to ownership of property.males cannot be allowed to give Womyn orders in an ordered society.So you will not be slaves to us unless you want to be but you will be subordinate and thus happy.

Big BrendaMay 28 2006 12:41pm

When do you tnink this will happen Big Brenda? I myself hope in this lifetime. I would certainly volunteer to be enslaved by a Woman but seeing Women gain power overall is a great start.

GuestJun 27 2006 3:53pm

It is happening now.Males are becoming less interested in politics as they are becoming less interested in education.When Womyn get the majority of passes in exams they will eventually get the majority of top positions in employment.Female Supremacy will be achieved one Womyn and one male at a time.Enslave yourself as soon as possible guest.The Female you submit to will know how to control you.Enjoy your future life.

Big BrendaJun 30 2006 2:19pm

Man and woman have been created, that is to say, willed by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. ?Being man? or ?being woman? is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their creator. Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity ?in the image of God.? Man and woman were made ?for each other? ? not that God left them half-made and incomplete: he created them to be a communion of persons, in which each can be a ?helpmate? to the other, for they are equal as persons ? and complementary as masculine and feminine. Catechism of the Catholic Church, paras. 369 and 372.

AnonymousJul 07 2006 11:40am

This is the silliest question... males would never understand anything so complicated and technical as working a voting device, besides they would lose valuable time doing their huswifely chores!

AnonymousAug 16 2006 12:38pm

In 2104 Women will be entitled to keep multiple husbands as slaves. A Woman would be entitled to cast one vote for each slave that She owns.

obedient husbandJul 28 2007 9:21am

Sigh. Why is it that on these boards, that gender automatically blinds people to any other aspects of humanity . I'm no saintly genius, but to lump me under a title of "male" and therefore assess me as such , is a step of arrogance that rivals that of any act of evil.

FNOLAug 13 2007 11:12pm

As i have thought about this question, i pondered whether Women would make this decision if they were in power. In the end, i decided that i didn't think they would. Instead, what i think will happen is that many men will be so uneducated that we will not know who to vote for. Thus, if men do vote, it will be for the person that the Woman in their life suggests. In essence, we wont be voting. But we will be permitted to.

thomasDec 05 2007 11:33am

Thomas is correct, which is why males should not be permitted to vote. As men fall behind intellectually, their input will be non-productive, if not harmful.

KatieDec 09 2007 8:45pm

male input is already harmful. The sooner males are eilminated from the political process the better.

AnonymousDec 23 2007 3:05pm

Women are too stupid to run a country, or anything mechanical. The arabs and muslims will certainly agree to be dominated by women. Women have not created or invented anything of substantial value yet. They will never take over anything. A big reason that women outnumber men in college is because black women go to college in much greater numbers than black men. These comments are mostly jerk off fantasies by ridiculous submissive wimp males. White men have and will always run the world.

women are idiotsDec 26 2007 8:07pm

To all the stupid people here. You mean to say that you would still leave the voting to women who voted for a backwards George Bush over those men who voted for a progress democratic president who is more sensititive to women's issues than republicans usually are? Are you that dense?

SteveApr 09 2008 10:42pm

Great, men are kicked out of college. Now all we'll have to watch for sports is synchronized swimming.

KevinApr 09 2008 10:43pm

It wont be long before the biggest and most popular sports are those engaged in by women. Companies will be owned and run by women. And all political positions will be selected and held by women.

thomasMay 22 2008 8:34pm

#0048 - (Sun.) * 6/1/08

UpdateJun 01 2008 9:34pm

Once a male is castrated he is no longer a man. Men will not be allowed to vote. They will be considered animals.

DaveSep 22 2008 6:53am

The castration fantasies may be a bit far fetched, but the advancement of women and the decline of patriarchal values is happening before our eyes. Women are gaining prominence in politics and power in society and the legal system. As women continue to earn the majority of higher degrees in the educational system, we are looking at future generations where the female will be in a position of elite status. It is not hard to imagine that the influence of male oriented policies could be rejected at that point. Then the male vote could be considered irrelevant and undesirable. Remember, if you don't think it is possible, there was a time when women did not have the vote. Now the trend is going in the opposite direction.

SandyDec 20 2008 5:36pm

Obedient husband you are thinking with your small head rather than the bigger one.How would Womyn enjoy a Femocracy if richer ones had more votes by deint of their owning more slaves.

Big BrendaDec 31 2008 7:54pm

Big Brenda, Ma'am, I was trying to irritate the backward males on this board, not You. Actually I am sure the Femocracy will not consult me on how to allocate votes. But if I may discuss an unsavory part of American history, when setting up the original constitution the slaveholding states wanted to count slaves for purposes of determining how many representatives they would get in the Congress even though of course the slaves had no vote. The free states objected to this but wanted to count to count the slaves for purposes of assessing taxes. It was finally decided that 3/5 of the slaves would be counted for purposes of allocating Congressional seats and 3/5 of the slaves would be counted for purposes of taxation. I could see where a rich Womyn would argue that She had a greater stake in the government and should get added representation based on the number of males She owned while a Womyn with only one or two slaves would object to same but at the same time would argue the rich Womyn should pay more taxes since She had more wealth. Perhaps there would be some sort of compromise as there was between the free states and slave states after the American Revolution but as a mere male I can only speculate as to the wisdom and resolution by my Female Superiors such as YOu and Your Sisters. As always it is an honor to be addressed by You and to be permitted to respond.

obedient husbandJun 21 2009 6:25pm

The assumption is that females will control the political and economic institutions in 100 years, and that may be true. If that occurs, I believe the vast majority of women would want to prohibit men from voting. Would they be able to enforce that? Who knows. Remove one advantage that men have, however, and women could enforce whatever they wanted. Remove men's physical strength advantage by making them weaker, or by making women stronger, or both and I think that men would cease to have any rights at all. Just an opinion...I've probably read way too much science fiction.

curiousSep 19 2009 9:22pm

i think all men will be slaves of womyn in another 100 years.

castratded slave of a superior ladySep 21 2009 1:25pm

All this about women gaining total political power is just not going to happen. This is because politics like religion are only manifestations of ideology which itself is the creation of the male superego. Human civilized society exists because of a concept which has been referred to as as the Will. This Will encompasses all creative thought whether it be political, religious or philosophical. But the Will is really the superego, and it exists only in males and through the males it controls it really rules all the Earth. So it is really is silly to believe that anything can exist outside of it's and therefore man's control.

wwDec 08 2009 1:46pm

You want to apply a backward philosophy cooked up by patriarchal male slavers to a Womyns Femocracy obedient husband?Why tahts madness and retrogressive.Each Womyn should be equal.

Big BrendaDec 20 2009 1:59am

Big Brenda, I did not say I WANTED to apply it. What I want will be irrelevant in a Femocracy. However, in most societies there are tensions between taxation and representation. But perhaps You are right. Superior Females might be better able to solve this problem than the patriarchal cultures. As always, it is an honor to be addressed by You Ma'am.

obedient husbandJan 23 2010 12:18pm

No, male voting rights were abolished in the 21st century. Hopefully male rights will be abolished by then.

RonApr 12 2010 6:49pm

Most wonmen are smart enough and most males are dumb enough for all rights to be taen away from us males and we will go right along with it for the most part. Nost makes do know that wonen are supeerior and we do want them to control us.

RonApr 12 2010 6:52pm

Hey Ron, you shouldn't have started smoking the weed before you finished your last sentence.

LOLApr 13 2010 9:45am

It was not weed. Remember I have a MALE brain. It certainly is no where near as good as a woman's brain.

RonApr 14 2010 6:48am

Until such time as a genuinely Gynarchic society is established with the abolition of male voting rights I favour a system of proxy voting by males. In other words they should vote as directed by to by their Female owners. This is a system I currently utlise with my male properties. Of course this still leaves the problem of inferior males being left to vote without clear female direction. This deeply concerns me and underlines a fundamental flaw in our current political system. We need to replace the 'equalitarian' myth that all humans are equal. In regards morality and cognitive capacity the male is a poor second to the basic template of humanity which is female. Male suffrage is an insult to the dignity of Womyn.

Goddess AmandaMay 22 2010 3:50pm

Most respectfully Goddess Amanada, how many mnales do you own?

obedient husbandJun 06 2010 3:04pm

'Mortal' Amanda = idiot.

an idiot hating life formJun 26 2010 5:39pm

This is pathetic. There's nothing wrong with domination fantasies but applying them to politics is preposterous. The differences between the genders are negligible and primarily caused by upbringing; females may be slightly more intelligent but half-crazed gynarchists aside, even if government was predominantly women (which I doubt it will ever be) the vast majority of women would never even consider doing something like this. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

AnonymousOct 21 2010 11:50am

First, after millennia of none of the general citizenry having a right to vote (except for a brief period in ancient Greece), democracy developed first in England, then America, and then to much of the rest of the world. At first there was not even universal male suffrage, then that happened, and then not long thereafter (in terms of human history), there was universal female suffrage. This is moral and political progress. I don't see it being reversed short of a war or armed revolution. Hopefully, no enlightened person would want a reversal of the democratic idea. ******** Second, the fundamental tenet of this ideal is that every adult who is affected by government decisions should have a right to participate in those decisions, if only to vote for a representative. This means that both adult women and adult men should have a right to vote. ******** Third, while it is true that the average girl is a better student than the average boy, it is not true that the worst girl student is better than the best boy student. Thus, there will always be some boys better able to go on to college than some girls. And they should. Thus, in the adult population there will be some men who are better educated than some women. ******** Fourth, intelligence and scholastic achievement are strongly correlated, but not the same. Bill Gates is a college dropout, but he is extremely intelligent and see what he has done. ******** Fifth, another ideal we have is that of equality of opportunity. Given this equality, the cream will rise to the top." "The cream" is not exclusively female, only mostly so. ******** Sixth, I don't see much point in talking about the superiority of one sex over the other because it is a value-laden, not purely empirical discussion. However, talking about dominance in a given situation is another thing. It is easily observed. It is mostly a matter of counting. Today it is clear that women are dominant in colleges and universities. They get more bachelor's, more, master's, and more doctorates than men. Already, the young women of today are earning more money than their male peers. The time will come (and rather soon) when women in the U.S. will dominate in the professions and all the managerial ranks of business and government. There will be a woman president, both houses of congress will be dominated by women, and most, if not all, of the Justices on the Supreme Court will be women. When all this happens, will women decide to take the vote away from men? I don't think so because I think women of the future will agree with the five points I made above.

HeraclitusNov 30 2010 11:02am

I would hope that men will retain the right to vote. This is one area in which men could still participate in their future regardless of the that would not be dependent on the "current barometer" of the male situation, i.e., lower income, less education, less financial power, etc. This has been, in democratic societies, the area where the interests of the minority and those of the majority that want to correct structural societal problems have banded together to form coalitions for reform. As a male, I hope that this one avenue is not taken away from me by women if they indeed become so dominant in society that they could revoke this "right". When there are no avenues of legal redress, revolution is a not too distant drummer. However, my faith in the moral leadership of women sustains my belief this will not happen - will it ladies?

David2Jun 02 2011 1:40pm

there is a lot being said here about men like if men did all the bad things int he world and like women were absolute saints. when the spaniards came to america who betrayed the nativeamericans by revealing the weaknesses of the aztec empire and who the regional enemies were? it was a woman women can be as bad as men who do you think raised the bad men? both can be just as bad may i remind anyone about margaret thatcher? the woman who had her thumb over the nuclear missile activation device the whole time during the Maldives island's crisis?(she would have blown the place up if britain hadnt won... for an island which offers nearly no economic benefits and for a country which cant possibly attack britain) Queen Victoria

AnonymousJun 21 2011 6:16pm

this reminds me of the morons who were going to vote for clinton just cause she was a woman hahaha

AnonymousJun 21 2011 6:22pm

Heraclitus and David2 make some excellent points above. I could envision a situation similar to that existed soon after women acquired to the right to vote, only completely reversed. That is to say, adult males would be allowed to vote, but their choices would be almost entirely limited to female candidates (it is entirely possible, however, that men would only be able to exercise the right to vote once they turned 25 or 30 whereas women, owing to their superior maturity and education, would acquire that right at the age of 18). This would have the beneficial effect of giving men a stake in the process (important for purposes of social peace) without allowing them to exercise the power or make the decisions. So, in the elections of 2104, Mike or John would be allowed to vote if they were 25, but they would be choosing between female candidates for President and Congress. And one might imagine that their choice would be heavily influenced, if not downright directed, by their wives or girlfriends, who will be significantly better educated and bringing home all or nearly all of the family income. Under such circumstances, Mike and John would likely see female rule as the natural order of things and be grateful that they could at least express an opinion (or back up that of their wives) every few years.

AnonymousJan 28 2012 11:38am

Women will not be able to set up a matriarchal society. Men will rebel and put women in their place. Men will re-establish patriarchy.

No matriarchyMay 25 2012 10:14am

This is a long comment I know, but I think my answer is the most reasoned. Let me know if you agree! It sounds like the majority of opinions here strongly in support or rejection of the idea of a world where men are no longer allowed to vote (which I assume to mean men would be seen as inferior or less capable compared to women). I think those in favor of this idea are far more likely to say that it will happen while those who are opposed will say it will not happen. This is simple wish fulfillment. You see the future you want. I'm going to try to take an unbiased POV here, something not ever completely possible, but I will try nonetheless. Men have historically taken the role of leadership, such that until recently has clearly been oppressive to women. This clearly stems from the physical. Men are, on balance, physically stronger than women, and so they have used this as a means of control. Now, we are talking about something over the course of 1000s of years, and through social mindsets. I'm sure in pre-historic times; men would simply beat a woman to put her under his control. As time went on, humans developed social norms and complex societies, in which it was generally accepted that men were the superior of women. Now we come to modern day. Over the course of only 80 years or so, the shift has changed. With the exception of only a few societies throughout history, men have always had a place of superiority over women. Now, there are many who believe that women are superior, others believe that men are, and still more will answer that they are equal. But the important thing to remember with all this is what brought about this change? The answer is equality. The idea of human equality is why women enjoy a much more liberated place in society. So to argue that woman will now hold all or most control in our world/country, one has to take into account the primary reason for her rise to power in the first place. Having said all that I do assert, that I, as a woman, am superior to men. But this sadly is simply not the majority view. However, I do think that the current youth of this nation's minds are shifting. Think of all female pop singers who sing of women empowerment. Even 20 years ago, a singer like Kesha would have never been accepted, now she is hugely famous. Art is usually the indicator of the minds of society. Young boys are learning from their mothers and culture that the superior attributes of men, physical strength, aggression, etc...are at best comical and at worst dangerous and barbaric. As several have pointed out, there are more women college graduates than men in the US. When have achieved this feat in only a few short decades of limited liberation. It is astounding. I do agree that women should take the places of leadership in our world. But I do feel that men have their place in society. The relationship is best illustrated in how men and women reproduce. A man's part is small and insignificant. I for one think that women are going the wrong direction by making the call for equality. We are not equal. Perhaps equality was a good banner to get behind in the beginning, but not longer. Women should now take the gloves off. State the world as it truly is, a world in which women are naturally more suited to lead. We are not equal, men are better foot soldiers, construction workers, etc. And women are better leaders, supervisors, military officers, etc. Each gender has it's strengths. It's not a matter of equality but of trait differences. Sure, there are a few individual men out there that could lead a group of people better than some individual women. There are dumb women and smart men, in other words. But on balance, the vast majority of women are better at roles of leadership than the vast majority of men. This vision is still not clear in the US and definitely not in the world at large. But I think, in time (perhaps the next 100 years), it will be.

KristenJun 06 2012 9:59am

Oh and btw, to all you women out there that agree with me..beware of the many men who say they agree with you about women empowerment. They love the idea of control, but limited only to their penis. It is all about sexual control. When it came to complete control, there are many of those very pathetic so-call 'women worshippers' that would not hesitate to fight it. Still many more men have taken their lust for women to the point that they would indeed be willing to give up all control to them. It is ofcourse, ridiculous to give up freedom for the sake of one's penis, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't 'seize' the oppurtunity. :)

KristenJun 06 2012 10:14am

I think I agree with you that men?s leadership for the past 1000s of years has been based on men?s greater physical strength (men?s physical strength was certainly the major reason but maybe not the only reason). I do agree with you that during all that time it was generally accepted that men were the superior of women. I agree that in a short period of time, there has been and is still occurring a shift from men having more social, political, and economic power to women having more of it. I agree with you that what has brought about this change is women acquiring equality with men. I agree that given equality opportunity, women have shown themselves to be superior to men in the attributes required in the modern world. I agree that the swiftness with which women have done this astounding. I agree that women should seek to be leaders. Given that women in general are superior to men in genera in the attributes needed in the modern world, more women than men would be our leaders, given equal opportunity.--------------At this point I begin to differ with you, assuming I understand you correctly. I think you are saying that the principle of equal rights between women and men should be discarded in favor of women being given more rights than men. If so, I disagree with you. Every person should be given equal opportunity to be all she or he can be. Equality of opportunity is one thing. Equality of outcome is something else. There should be equality of opportunity, but given that different people have different abilities, there will be inequality of outcome. If you believe that women naturally have attributes that make them superior to men in the modern world, then given equality of opportunity, women will outperform men and more women than men will be leaders. What more could you want? There is no need to have policies that discriminate against men and discriminate in favor of women.--------------I think you have overlooked the fact that women and men are more alike than they are different. For example, the difference in IQ between the woman with a high IQ and the woman with a low IQ is much greater than the difference in IQ between the average woman and the average man, which is zero difference. You say that you assert that you as a woman are superior to men. Really? All men. In every way? Just because you are a woman? Are you saying that every woman is superior to every man? That the least competent women is superior to the most competent man? Ridiculous. But if you admit that some men are superior to some women in some useful trait, then reason requires you to support equality of opportunity. --------------- So far, the best post that I have read is that by Heraclitus above. ----------- I am a man but I thought that what you said about a woman ?seizing? a certain opportunity was cute. ------ Oh, btw, I don't think you explicitly answered the poll question: Will men be allowed to vote in 100 year?

He who used to call himself "No Matriarchy"Jun 07 2012 5:06pm

Actually, my pseudonym should be "No Matriarchy" and not "He who used to call himself "No Matriarchy."

No MatriarchyJun 07 2012 10:00pm

I made the provacative argument that "Women will not be able to set up a matriarchal society. Men will rebel and put women in their place. Men will re-establish patriarchy." In the comments of the the poll "Future Matriarchy: How Will Men React?" (Category: Society and Culture), I debate and comment on this at length. Anyone interested in this topic should go to that poll.

No MatriarchyJun 14 2012 8:19am

I did answer the question..mostly. Perhaps in the next 100 years the world view of female superiority will change. That could include voting laws. The only sane answer is 'maybe'. There's no one that knows for certain. But No Matriarchy, arguing the future is really quite silly. Which is why I mostly speak of what I believe to be currently true, and what could happen. ------------Ok, so yes I assert that I am superior to men. Am I saying I'm smarter than Einstein? A better basketball player than Coby Brian? Of course not. I didn't say I am superior, I said; as a woman, I am superior. And yes, a fairly fine distinction, but I tried my best to explain why I believe that. -----I've already said; it's not that all women are better at everything than all men. It's that women generally are better at what it takes to succeed in modern society. So much better, in my opinion, that it seems logical that the gender as a whole will in fact, take over. -------- I understand that right now the majority of society is all about equality. Everyone is equal...blah blah. Sure, everyone should have certain rights. I'm not in favor of throwing all of the bill of rights out, just some of it. :) ---- But this poll is about the future. And No Matriarchy, I think you'd be surprise just how different things can be over the course of a hundred years. You have every right to argue your point. Sure, maybe things will stay like they are concerning rights between women and men. Maybe men will become more dominate as they once were. Or maybe, just maybe, the public trend allowing/accepting women in places of authority will swing and it will be men that do the housework. It will be men that take manual jobs, while women focus their resources on leadership. Maybe there will still be some men involved in the leadership, maybe a large minority. Or maybe, (if my wish comes true) it will slowly become accepted that, generally speaking, women just do it better. So men will give up their right of leadership. That men will be seen as I see them, for the most part, morally unstable to lead. ---- This as I mentioned, anything I?ve said about the future is just wishful thinking, nothing factual, so that will be the end of my argument about it. And your thoughts on what men would do if women did try to control them?that?s just fantasy as well. ---- But I will never change my belief that if women ruled the world upon the backs of their men, this world would truly be a better place.

KristenJun 15 2012 2:54pm

@Kristen, I agree that arguing about what the future WILL BE is silly, but, one can speculate, right? About what COULD be? About what IS LIKELY to be? Above all -- about what OUGHT to be? One can share, compare, and contrast views. It?s like a game; entertaining and sometimes informative and enlightening. Above all, one should always deal directly with issues and respect the person with whom one is having a discussion. ---------- I state my views on matriarchy and related issues in the poll ?Future Matriarchy: How Will Men React?? I state them there at length, perhaps ad nauseum; so, I will try to restate them here only as necessary for context. Here, I am interested in your views?the feminine perspective. The feminine perspective, especially that of the young women of today, promises to be a major force in determining the future. So, I invite you to share your views, recognizing your prerogative to decline on any or all points. ---------- About men having the right to vote in 100 years: how would you answer the question, ?SHOULD men be allowed to vote in a society in which women are much more successful than men and they have considerably more power than men?? I think that several reasons can be given for saying that men in a matriarchy should be allowed to vote. First, in a democracy, allowing all adults ? both women and men ? the right to vote is the moral thing to do. Every adult has a stake in the decisions made by the elected officials of its society and so every adult should have a voice in determining who those elected officials will be. Second, men agreed (eventually, some would say belatedly) with the point just made and recognized that women should have the vote too, EVEN THOUGH at the time men were considered the superior sex. If men can be that moral and perceptive about things, don?t you think that women would be equally moral and perceptive? Third, when it comes to intelligence, education, assuming responsibility, application, and such desirable traits, there is considerable overlap in the distribution of these traits among women and men. It is not as if ALL women are capable and ALL men are not capable. If that were the case, sex might be considered relevant to the issue of voting rights. But it is not the case, and I know you recognize that, for you say ?it?s not that all women are better at everything than all men. It's that women generally are better at what it takes to succeed in modern society.? I agree with you on that?women generally are better at what it takes to succeed in modern society. However, the operative word there is ?generally.? If anything is relevant to who should and shouldn?t vote, it seems that capabilities should be the criteria, not sex. So, if voting rights were changed I think the changes would be made according to the capabilities of the individual person. In that case, a higher percentage of women compared to men might be allowed to vote. For example, if one had to be a college graduate, then in the U.S. today 60% of women and 40% of men might be allowed to vote. (However, my personal opinion is that all adults should have the vote.) ---------- You wrote, ?Maybe things will stay like they are concerning rights between women and men.? Well, nothing ever remains the same. If one studies history, one sees continual change. So, the details of the rights between women and men may change. However, I think there SHOULD BE some basic principles that will not change. One is that there should be equal opportunity regardless of sex. Given equal opportunity, women have shown that they can outperform men in what it takes to succeed in modern society. I ask, ?What more could you want?? Do you disagree with the ideal of equal opportunity and want to replace it with restrictions on opportunity for men just because they are men, i.e., that they are built differently down there? ---------- You wrote, ?Maybe men will become more dominate as they once were.? Kristen, of course, I know that you do not wish this, rather the opposite, and that you are stating that as merely a theoretical possibility, not something you think probable. Ok, I do not think it possible that men will dominate as they once did. The ideals of freedom and equality of opportunity are too strong. History never reverses; but moves forward to a synthesis of what has happened before. Many historians see history as growing toward those ideals of freedom and equal opportunity. Slavery was once accepted everywhere. Today it is anathema. Even if it were possible for men to dominate as they once did, I would not wish that. Surprised? Well, I do believe in freedom and equal opportunity, so I do not think it right that one half of humanity subjugates the other half. Men should not subjugate women, and women should not subjugate men. How do you feel about this? ---------- You wrote, ?Women generally are better at what it takes to succeed in modern society. So much better, in my opinion, that it seems logical that the gender as a whole will in fact, take over.? I agree on both points, providing that by ?women as a whole taking over? one means women occupying the majority of the positions of power (not all positions of power). Given that women are 60% of the college grads and are earning more master?s degrees and doctorates than men, it seems logical that they could take over 60% or somewhat better of the positions of power. It is clear that women first caught up and are now outperforming men relative to positions of power. That is, women have ?taken over? a lot already and still taking over more. The question is, I think, ?What will be the extent of the take-over by women? Women could, if they chose, occupy 60% of the positions of power. However, that does not mean that they will actually do it. It is all a matter of what women in general choose. Women, more than men, choose to prioritize staying home with the kids over career. The eventual power distribution between women and men could be something like 53% for the women and 47% for men. I am not sure that would be enough to call the society a matriarchy ? more like a hybrid society tending toward a matriarchy. --------- Kristen, I think I understand now what you mean when you say ?As a woman, I am superior.? I think that you are saying, (1) Women are the superior sex, (2) I am a woman, so (3) I am a member of the superior sex. Your identity is that of a woman and a member of the superior sex. But what should my identity be? Should I, in your view, think of myself as a member of the inferior sex? I don?t identify myself that way and don?t think that I, or any man, should. I identify myself more on the basis of individuality that I do on sexual class membership. By individuality, I mean characteristics I possess as an individual. As I state in the ?Future Matriarchy? poll I am an older, successful man who is secure in his position in the world. If most of the manual laborers are men, that fact does not describe me. ------- I agree that what I said about men resisting the increasing leadership of women was fantasy. In my debate with ?Facts and Trends? in the ?Future Matriarchy? poll, I realized that. However, this raises other issues. To what extent SHOULD women, assuming they had the power, try to control men? And why? To what extent WILL women, assuming they had the power, try to control men? And how?

No MatriarchyJun 16 2012 11:41am

Toward the end of my comment, please change "I identify myself more on the basis of individuality that I do on sexual class membership" to "I identify myself more on the basis of individuality THAN I do on sexual class membership."

No MatriarchyJun 16 2012 11:45am

@No Mat. Ok, so you believe the female rise to power will be more subtle and organic. Perhaps like a gender reversal of where we are now or maybe even 20 years ago. Rather than a world where things are more overt and society openly accepts women??s superiority. To the point that laws are changed to reflect this?Klike voting laws. ---- Yes, to answer your question: you should view yourself as inferior to women. For example, think about your relationship with your wife/gf (or if you aren??t attached, your future relationship). From what I can tell, most women don??t really want to admit that they control their husbands/bfs, but it seems to me that they, for the most part, really do. Perhaps she wouldn??t want you to come out and say it, but if you accepted in your mind that you were inferior to her, your [to be] wife/gf would, I would imagine, be much more happy with you. Sure, pick heavy things up around her, open pickle jars, show her you??re a man. But at the end of the day, give into her wants. Live your life with the attitude of service, and I??m guessing two things will happen: she will be crazy about you and you will feel at peace with your relationship. If you let her lead the relationship, it will be steered in the right direction. Again, I??m speaking based on general rules as I see them. She could be crazy! But from what I can see, when it comes to handling relationships, women are almost always better than men. --- I know, most people take the argument that a world led equally by men and women is the best. Men are generally better in some aspects, women are better in others. That together they are better than separate. It is argued that only having one gender in any group causes that group to lose the point of view of the other gender, which is to the detriment of the whole. And as you have shown me your POV, I see that you strongly believe in giving equal rights to all. You say (I paraphrase), individual people regardless of gender have earned the right to have a voice. Sounds nice. But in all of this I don??t think it??s what is best for the future of humankind. (I refuse to say mankind) I do not believe that 2 genders are better than one in a group. I believe that men work together better and women as well. Separately. Even so, having both women and men in congress, for example, is better than men only. But only because of the vast benefit that women offer to leadership. You take all the men out and put in women, wow?Kwhat the results. ----Listen, we are too far apart on this issue. You believe in equal rights. I think little 5 year old boys should be taught that they are the inferior gender and that they need to respect and listen to females. (Shocking?) We generally are taught to respect the elderly?Kand there are plenty of unworthy of respect. But as a rule, they deserve our respect (we live in the world that they made for us)?Kso we respect them. Generally, women deserve the respect and honor of men?Kso they should respect us. Perhaps if you saw, as I do, the huge gap between the genders. I don??t see women as you do?Kas slightly ahead of men in certain key areas. I see women as far superior to men in basically all areas of life that are of real importance. Men are ugly, witless and barbaric. Women are beautiful, intelligent and graceful. Get on board No Mat! Give in to us. Release your need to be right, your need to have a handle on things. I??m a beautiful 25 year old woman No Mat. Wouldn??t you want to sit at my cute little feet and be my puppy? I??d let you paint my nails. ?? You let the women worry about the mean old world sweetie, and just keep busy digging that ditch.

KristenJun 18 2012 7:47am

Appearantly, if you click on the same link you hit to go in and add a comment on here, then it just keeps adding your last comment over and over. Oops!

KristenJun 19 2012 6:59am

@Kristen. I asked for an expression of the feminine perspective on where the world SHOULD be heading in terms of the power differential between women and men and you certainly expressed that. Well, maybe not ?the? feminine perspective but one woman?s perspective. I have to wonder then about the extent to which your views shared by other young women. I wonder too what young men might be thinking about the potential of a matriarchy. I would be interested in your opinion on this. ---------- I agree fully that the fundamental difference between our POVs is that of equality. I believe in equal rights, including equality of opportunity, and you do not, because, apparently, you believe that men are inferior to women and therefore do not warrant equal rights (because, I think, of a principle that ?only equals should have equal rights?). I agree that we are so far apart on this matter of equality of rights that it is pointless to argue about it; i.e., try to persuade the other to one?s own view. ---------- I think your views are extreme. They go beyond feminism and even matriarchy. I go with the common dictionary definition of ?feminism? as a philosophy of and movement toward women having equal social, political, and economic rights with men. So defined, I am a feminist. I define ?matriarchy? as a society in which women have significantly more power than men. So defined, matriarchy is a matter of observable power distribution, and contains no assertion of female superiority and no philosophy that because women are superior to men they SHOULD have more power. When you add the notion of female superiority and the philosophy that women morally should have more power than men because of that superiority, then for me you go beyond matriarchy to what I would call ?female supremacy.? Of course, I disagree with any program for female supremacy because I believe in equal rights between women and men. ---------- Your POV rests largely on the belief of female superiority. As you say, ?I see women as far superior to men in basically all areas of life that are of real importance.? I would say that even if it were true that women are superior to men, there still should be equality of opportunity. If it were true, women would achieve matriarchy without need of laws or regulations restricting the opportunities of men. ---------- However, I question the meaningfulness of talking about women being superior to men, or men being superior to women, for that matter. I think you have to go area by area, trait for trait. Men on average are physically superior to women ? they are larger, heavier, stronger, run faster, jump further, and jump higher. Women on average seem to be biologically superior to men ? they live longer, have better senses (seeing, hearing, smelling, touching), are less susceptible to certain diseases, and so on. Beyond that, the comparisons become more complex, because they are more social than physical/biological. Moreover, the idea of ?superiority? is a value judgment, a product of society. Now, concerning women?s alleged better management abilities: yes, there are tests that indicate this. However, the proof is in the pudding. That is, the management abilities of women in a society in which women dominate business and government are unknown, because there has never been such a society of any historical importance or complexity in human history. Similarly, we do not really know if war would be eliminated if all countries had female leadership. Well, that?s my POV anyway. I know you disagree. I would say this: IF women had the superior leadership abilities, the superior ability to cooperate, and the superior moral nature that you believe they have, then a world of matriarchies (not female supremacies!) might be utopia, or close to it. --------- I also question the utility of talking about women in general being superior to men (or vice-versa). I do not think that serves any good purpose; it promotes stereotyping. I do not think ?little 5 year old boys should be taught that they are the inferior gender.? Of course, you know my view: every child should be treated as an individual, and not a member of this sex, or that race, or such. I do agree that boys should be taught to respect girls and women and that they should be taught to accept and follow the legitimate authority of women in power. ---------- On the issue of a potential matriarchy I have focused on the macro level ? the level of society as a whole, and not on the micro level ? the level of couples or families. I have done this because it is the facts and trends at the macro level that seem to me to be the most obvious and measurable. These facts and trends are what point to a coming matriarchy. Changes in the macro level (education, earnings, occupations, management, etc.) produce changes in the micro level (e.g., more couples agreeing that the wife will be the breadwinner and the husband the stay-at-home dad and/or house worker.) To be sure, changes in the micro level must affect the macro level, but I think the main causation is from macro to micro. So, we know something of what?s happening at the micro level but not as much as at the macro level. Also, I am not a twenty-something man, so I am not in position to see and experience what going on with the young people, the prime determiners of the future. ---------- However, re the micro issue of the woman being in control of the man in wife-husband or gf-bf relationships: I agree that in many such relationships the woman is the one in control and that both the woman and man don?t like to admit this. Question: why the reluctance to admit it? Is the reluctance something innate? Something genetic? Is it ?natural? for the man to be the one in control with the woman deferring to him? Or is it all a matter of socialization? I do not think this question can be answered now, but of course one can speculate.

No MatriarchyJun 19 2012 1:17pm

Re the duplication of comments: I have done that too. Now,I copy in a comment, submit it, and then without doing anything else, close the browser tab or the browser. That seems to work.

No MatriarchyJun 19 2012 1:26pm

It appears that LikeLike.com reorganized its site and when it did that my last comment was dropped. I add it again below.

No MatriarchyAug 31 2012 1:23pm

It has been awhile without a comment from Kristen, so I assume she is no longer interested in making comments regarding this poll. This is a disappointment to me as I was weighing the pros and cons of her invitation to me to become her puppy. :) Oh well. In any case, it seems to me that the dialogue is left dangling; so, I would like to make some final comments by way of closure. . . . . . . . . . . First, Kristen says and sincerely believes that women are superior to men. I admit I have struggled to understand exactly what she means by this. So, I went through her comments to see exactly what she said. Here are some quotes: (1) â€œwomen are naturally more suited to lead,â€ (2) â€œthe vast majority of women are better at roles of leadership than the vast majority of men,â€ (3) â€œwomen generally are better at what it takes to succeed in modern society. So much better, in my opinion, that it seems logical that the gender as a whole will in fact, take over,â€ and (4) â€œI see women as far superior to men in basically all areas of life that are of real importance.â€ . . . . . . . . . . I can understand the beliefs behind these statements. I think a number of people share these beliefs, for a number of people argue that in the U.S. we are heading for a matriarchy. For the sake of convenience, I shall refer to these beliefs as the â€œWomen Superior in Modern Success Traitsâ€ beliefs. . . . . . . . . . . Second, although Kristen does not dwell on it, it is clear to me that she believes that women are morally superior to men. She says, â€œmen will be seen as I see them, for the most part, morally unstable to lead.â€ She also says, â€œif women ruled the world . . . , this world would truly be a better place.â€ . . . . . . . . . . Once again, there are a number of people who share the belief that women are morally superior to men. For the sake of convenience, I shall refer to this belief as the â€œWomen are morally superiorâ€ belief . . . . . . . . . . What do you have if you combine the â€œWomen Superior in Modern Success Traitsâ€ and â€œWomen are morally superiorâ€ beliefs? It seems to me that you move beyond a simple prediction of a matriarchy (because of the superior traits) to a view that it is morally imperative that women rule (because of their moral superiority) â€“ from what â€œwill beâ€ to what â€œshould be.â€ I think that IF you buy in to the premises, the conclusion is persuasive. Thus, Kristen concludes that â€œwomen should take the places of leadership in our world.â€ . . .. . . . . . . . Kristenâ€™s premises are supported by many and her overall argument seems cogent; however, this argument (as I understand it) does not explain to me all that she believes about the superiority of women over men. She goes on to say, â€œI, as a woman, am superior to men.â€ By this she does not mean she is better than every man in every trait; for example â€œsmarter than Einsteinâ€ or â€œa better basketball player than Coby Brian.â€ However, in some sense she believes every woman is superior to every man. I asked directly, â€œShould I, in your view, think of myself as a member of the inferior sex?â€ Her answer was equally direct and unequivocal: â€œYes, to answer your question: you should view yourself as inferior to women.â€ . . . . . . . . . . She followed this statement with a comparison to the respect that every one owes the elderly: â€œWe generally are taught to respect the elderly--and there are plenty of unworthy of respect. But as a rule, they deserve our respect (we live in the world that they made for us)--so we respect them. Generally, women deserve the respect and honor of men--so they should respect us.â€ I felt this comment was significant but still did not understand it. On reading through her comments, I came across this one: â€œThe relationship [between the sexes] is best illustrated in how men and women reproduce. A man's part is small and insignificant.â€ So, I think Kristen believes, as do a number of others, that woman is superior to man because she is the one who carries life, gives birth, and nurtures our infants. If I am right about this, I believe she would agree with the following quote: â€œThe bond each human being nurtures with their mothers is irreplaceable. Every man on earth, irrespective of their ethnic and cultural background and upbringing, will bear testimony to this fact. Women are the first educators of children and have that special connection with the offspring of this world. It is women who give birth to children and not men. This fact alone makes the superiority of women a deserving title that men can never ever manage to challenge, let alone achieve, even in the wildest of their dreamsâ€ (Remmy, http://www.worldoffemale.com/are-women-superior-than-men/). . . . . . . . . . . I think this view of the inherent superiority of woman as life giver is intimately connected with the idea of the disposable male and the view that woman is the more valued sex. This is the idea of â€œwomen and children firstâ€ and the idea that the male exists to protect and provide for the woman, where protection means giving up his life for her if need be. Her life is more valued than his. (As I pointed out in another LikeLike poll (â€œFuture Matriarchyâ€), it is ironic that the male, who chief role other than providing sperm is to protect and provide for woman, should become the oppressor of woman.) . . . . . . . . . . . This then is my understanding of Kristenâ€™s points of views (POVs) on the superiority of woman over man. I have tried to explicate her views non-judgmentally. I have avoided interjecting my own views or critically evaluating her views. I have simply tried to understand them. Only she knows if I have been successful.

No MatriarchyAug 31 2012 1:25pm

Kristen and other women who would like to deprive all males of political rights, not only the right to hold political office but even the right to vote, might be interested in an utopian dream called "Femquility." (http://www.femalesrule.com/) Femquility is a small, environmentally friendly community where every couple is in a female led relationship (FLR). I found no advocacy of BDSM in these FLRs, although I suppose that is up to each couple (as it is in the larger world). The Femquility utopia is thoroughly thought out. The section/webpage on "Core Values" states for value #6 that "Decision making power is earned by active participation in the shared life of the community. The Wise Woman Council makes the decisions but males will have a way to give their feedback via written suggestion forms or by discussing it with their wife, girlfriend or closest female friend and asking her to consider giving voice to his suggestions or concerns." Although I oppose all society being matriachical, I have no problem with such voluntary personal relationships or communities based on their values. I doubt Femquility will ever be realized, though--even as conceived of as a very small, voluntary community.

No MatriarchyDec 12 2012 9:48am

Kristen, I will preface my comment as you did your first comment â€“ â€œThis is a long comment I know.â€ (Actually, itâ€™s much longer than I thought it would be.) First, I have to say that I find your spirit appealing, as revealed in your comments. You come across as a very sincere young woman who has given the issue of gender relations a lot of thought. I too have given gender relations a lot thought for about five or six years now. I think you will agree that your proposed policies of denying men the vote, teaching little boys they are the inferior gender, and having a congress comprised only of women are far out. Ordinarily I would ascribe such views to a man-hating, ball busting castrating, rad feminist. But you do not come across to me as man-hating, ball busting or castrating (feminist, yes; but every intelligent person should be that). Even though you describe us men as â€œugly, witless and barbaricâ€ (ouch! ouch! ouch!), you seem to me to have and value relationships with men. And so I find you intriguing as well as appealing. ----Kirsten, I agree mostly with your views, but not all. [Sorry. :)] I agree with you that in the future world where knowledge is the key to money, position, and power, the average man will â€œbe seen as inferior or less capable compared toâ€ the average woman. I agree that in the future world the distinguishing attributes of men, such as our assertiveness, aggression, proneness to violence, macho posturing, bragging, loudness, dirtiness, fondness for belching and farthing, recklessness, male egos, and constantly seeking penis gratification are â€œat best comical and at worst dangerous and barbaric.â€ I agree that â€œwomen are naturally better leaders.â€ I agree that â€œwomen should take the places of leadership in our world.â€ I agree that â€œthe vast majority of women are better at roles of leadership than the vast majority of men.â€ I agree that â€œwomen generally are better at what it takes to succeed in modern society.â€ I agree that the female sex is morally superior to the male sex and so leadership by women would result in a better world for both women and men. I agree with you that women collectively are so much better at what it takes to succeed in modern society â€œthat the gender as a whole will in fact, take over.â€ I agree â€œthat if women ruled the world . . ., this world would truly be a better placeâ€ (and therefore, both women and men have a moral obligation to empower women more). I agree that the important thing is â€œwhat is best for the future of humankind,â€ where this means that the material well being, the happiness, and the physical, mental, and emotional health of both women and men is increased. If denying men the vote is best for the future of humankind, then men should be denied the vote. (BTW, I applaud your refusal to say mankind. Yes, it is sexiest to speak of mankind.) I agree that the average woman is better at leading personal relationships than the average man (and therefore most personal relationships should be led by the woman rather than the man.) ----Kristen, five or six years ago I would not have agreed with you on any of this, but the facts and trends are clear and gradually and reluctantly I have been forced from denial to acceptance of â€œThe Coming American Matriarchyâ€ (Jonathan Rauch). Within the past five or six years, more and more, people are bringing into the open the End of Man and the dawning Age of Woman (e.g., Hannah Rosin, Liza Mundy, Jonathan Rauch, Dan Abrams, Kay S. Hymowitz, Guy Garcia, Lionel Tiger, Leonard Sax, Dan Kindlon, Peg Tyre, Gary Cross, William Bray, and others.) The idea that women will be the First Sex and men will be the Second Sex is out of the closet. ----Kristen, although I agree with so much of your views, I do not share them all, or at least, I am doubtful about some. ---- Should men be denied the vote? I donâ€™t know. If that is best for the future of humankind, yes. Of course, such a policy is out of the question at the present time. Men wouldnâ€™t allow it. But in the future, who knows? ----Should â€œlittle 5 year old boys . . . be taught that they are the inferior gender?â€ No, with all due respect, Kristen, I donâ€™t think so. I donâ€™t think that in the long run it does society good to tell little Johnny that he is automatically inferior to little Kristen just because he has a penis dangling between his legs and she is wonderfully smooth there. If little Johnny is a poor scholar, he would just give up and become a burden to society. (Many of the books by authors I cited above address this issue of too many boys growing up to be lazy, un-ambitious, uneducated, unemployable, and unmarriageable young men prone to crime.) I do agree with you, though, that little boys should be taught that they â€œneed to respect and listen to females.â€ They need to be taught that â€œwomen deserve the respect and honor of men.â€ One of the things that startled me when I began to think more about gender relations was how much respect and appreciation women deserved for what they have done and do and how little respect and appreciation we males gave them. I donâ€™t know how it should be done, but, yes, little boys need to learn to appropriately respect, honor, and appreciate women. Moreover, little boys â€“ and girls â€“ should be prepared in school for a world in which women hold most of the positions of authority. Given that women are 60% of the college graduates are women and they now earn most of the masters degrees and doctorates, women will hold most of the positions of authority. They will be most of the doctors, dentists, optometrists, pharmacists, lawyers, judges, accountants, bankers, teachers, principles, college professors, supervisors, CEOs (yes the glass ceiling will be broken), journalists, etc., etc. etc. And women should be most of the elected officials and legislators. There is absolutely no reason why they should not. All women have to do is to make up their minds to run for office. They will comprise most of the qualified candidates because of their superior education, and of course most of the voters will be women. If women donâ€™t rule the government twenty years from now, it will not be because of what men did. I think the biggest barrier to women ruling in government is their lack of confidence. So, schools must work harder on giving girls more confidence. And you know, Kristen, teachers need not tell little boys they are members of the Second Sex. They will get the message anyway by seeing women hold all the positions of authority. And besides, little 5 year old Kristen will be sure to tell little 5 year old Johnny which is the superior sex. You know she will! ---In addition to preparing girls and boys for the changes in the societal relationships between women and men, they should prepare them for changes in the personal relations of individual women and men. Gender roles are changing now! In the not-distant-future, women will be marrying down more often than up. In most couples the woman will be more educated than the man. In most marriages, the wife will earn more than the husband. In most couples, the womanâ€™s career will be more important the manâ€™s. All of this will be hard for both men and women to adapt to. Most women will be financially independent; in general, a wife will not need a man for support. Women will not have to tolerate and will not tolerate menâ€™s bad behavior. Men must meet the expectations of women or itâ€™s â€œhit the road Jack.â€ More men will drop out of society altogether. More men will turn to crime or become homeless, and that's bad not just for them but for society. Today, in the schools, girls and boys need to learn that it is OK for the wife to be better educated than the husband, or have a more prestigious job, or earn more money. That it is OK for the wife to be the sole earner and the husband to be a house husband. That it is OK for the woman to be the leader in the relationship and the man to be the follower. That a marriage or other woman-man partnership is not a democracy and that one of the couples should have the final say and that in most cases it should be the woman. Given the high rate of divorce, it makes sense for the wife to keep her maiden name and the children should always take her last (i.e., maiden) name. So should the husband. Gender roles are changing even now and the schools should respond to the need for changes in the basic values, viewpoints, and expectations of both women and men. ---Wow! I have written much, much more than I expected. I got on a roll and couldnâ€™t stop. ---Kristen(if perchance you do still check up on whatâ€™s happening on this poll), I think you are a woman of the future. Your viewpoints may seem â€œfar outâ€ now, but they are the future. If we were in a relationship, Kristen, you would be my leader and I would sit at your cute little feet, be your puppy, and paint your nails.

JohnMar 19 2013 12:38pm

And a 12 year old boy works out a defence plan that would be better than the methods in Hanc*ck film, with the dmt trigger on the c4 bombs, so idea: all men take their balls hostage, no balls no semen= no more humanity

AnonymousJun 18 2013 5:59pm

What nonsense. Take the vote from men, and they will say "well, I'm not making the laws anymore, so I won't abide by them", and that's the very swift end of women's "fight for equality". You already see resistance against preferential treatment of women, not only by men but also by other women who realize that this will eventually backfire horribly. It's a physical world, words are just sound, laws are just blots of ink on some paper. They will not protect women if they try to misuse the power given to them by men. There wouldn't be enough women's shelters for the survivors.

RealityAug 25 2013 3:46pm

Men should not be permitted to vote. Once a female dominated government is established--and it is coming--the male franchise should be abolished and men should be treated as women were in the early 19th Century--no property rights and as chattel to their wives, mothers etc.

SarahOct 21 2013 4:46am

APhkaO Major thankies for the post.Really looking forward to read more. Really Cool.

XqPwMWhbgRtgmOct 25 2013 5:01pm

I surely hope it happens soon. If the some men are disruptive and willing to follow the rules we make, we can impose stiffer measures that will bring them into line.

AnnieNov 25 2013 10:42am

@John. I think when Kristen talks about a man being her "puppy" I think she is using a euphemism for "bitch." Do you really want to be Kristen's (or any woman's) bitch?

SteveDec 24 2013 8:44pm

I think women are the superior sex in the modern world which calls for higher education. Since women are receiving (about)60% of the bachelor's degrees in the U.S., they (in the U.S.) can be 60% of college professors, pharmacists, doctors, lawyers, judges, supervisors, executives, representative, senators, governors, and future federal presidents. In short, they can establish an American matriarchy. And they should; that would be only fair. I can acknowledge that the average woman is superior to the average man in what counts in the modern world and I can acknowledge that in the majority of marriages in the future, the wife should be the head and the husband should defer to her. However, none of that means that men shouldn't be allowed to vote. We still have brains and can think and decide who should be our leaders. The right to vote should not be taken from us.

SteveDec 24 2013 9:01pm

And another thing. Some women, like Kristen, see the proper role of the male limited to housework and manual jobs. Twice she said that "if women ruled the world upon the BACKS of their men, this world would truly be a better place" (caps added for emphasis). But this is wrong. Many men have brains and can be educated just as good as some women, and so they should be allowed to develop their brains, get good education, and get into leadership positions. Maybe there wont be as many as women but still there will be a lot (about 40%) and so they should be given the opportunity. I think women like Kristen go too far.

SteveDec 27 2013 7:17am

-1

1Feb 19 2014 7:27am

I think Kristen is right, "if women ruled the world upon the backs of their men, the world would be a better place" Men are too violent and dangerous to be allowed decision making authority

SarahMar 11 2014 2:27am

If Hillary Clinton is elected in 2016, that will be the tipping point. Over the following decade women will take control of most institutions and eventually disenfranchise men. It's the natural result of evolution that women should rule and men should work under them. To preserve this, denying men the right to vote is a natural means to the end. Women will rule on the backs of their men. Men will be relegated to household and physical labor, supporting roles and the like.

SarahMar 11 2014 11:13am

The pundits say Hillary is likely to be elected president in 2016. If that happens, of course that will be a milestone and remembered in history, but it is not likely to be the tipping point if by that you mean suddenly women will enter and win elections in state legislatures, governerships, the federal legislature, and the presidency. For the presidency the pool of qualified candidates is pretty much limited to congress and governships and women are currently greatly outnumbered there. Hillary being elected president might would inspire girls K-12 and maybe college, but it will be at least a couple of decades before women achieved equality with men in legislatures and governorships, and not "over the following decade." That is, if they ever do achieve equality in legislatures and governorships. And they may not. Women make different choices than men (to the displeasure of most ardent feminists) and they are not as confrontational as men and confrontation is part of politics. So, women may shy away from running for public office in the numbers that men do, which seems to be the case now. I said above that women "can establish an American matriarchy." I should have added, "if they want to." That is, if enough of them choose to run for public office. However, women will certainly comprise the majority of those in the professions and should take over the businesses (if they want to). Above I said, " I can acknowledge that the average woman is superior to the average man in what counts in the modern world." So, I personally would support gender reversal in the professions, business, and government because I believe in equal opportunity. However, for reasons stated, women may not take over political leadership. Even if they did, they wouldn't try to disenfranchise men. For one thing, men would object and they're bigger, stronger, and more aggressive. For another thing, women wouldn't try because they are not motivated to. They are sensible and they know that the same agruments for women getting the vote apply to men keeping the vote. Very few women would buy your theory that "Men are too violent and dangerous to be allowed decision making authority." A minority of men are violent and dangerous. Most are not. And although women as a whole do better in education than men, 43% of college graduates are men and that's a substantial number if you think about. The male disenfrancishment theory of women like you is based on the theory that ALL men are violent, ALL men are stupid, and ALL men are uneducated. That's absurd.

SteveMar 12 2014 11:09am

Most revolutions reflect the will of a small percentage of the population that is highly focused and committed Radical feminists like myself have and agenda for reordering society. A focused like minded group in power could do a lot to change things--men might no like it, but frankly we are not much interested in men's preferences

SarahMar 12 2014 3:52pm

I agree that "Most revolutions reflect the will of a small percentage of the population that is highly focused and committed." I understand by "radical feminism" the set of beliefs that men have oppressed women through the ages and still do, that "patriarchy" is the name for this oppression, that patriarchy should be "smashed," and that only revolution and a radical reordering of society will establish a proper balance of power between the class of men and the class of women. So I think I understand where you are coming from. I believe most women believe that the proper balance of power between men and women would be one of equality in which neither sex is oppressed. However, I think some women, some radical feminists such as yourself, believe the proper balance of power should be one in which women hold more power than men (matriarchy). Even so, that belief does not necessarily mean that men should be oppressed (female supremacy without the fetish stuff, which few women like). I think the idea that men should be oppressed is nothing more than man-hating "pay back." Because they don't want to identified as man-hating, revengeful women, many women today do not want to even identify themselves as feminists, even though their beliefs fit the dictionary definition of feminism. I agree that "a focused like minded group in power could do a lot of changes," but I don't think radical feminists will ever be that group. First, for reasons that I detailed above, women may not seek political power in numbers great enough to become a majority. Second, even if they do, radical feminists would be a small minority of those women. As I said, many women do not want to identify as feminists, so that's one oppositional group. The majority of those that do are eqalitarian feminists and do not seek the establishment of a system where there is an agenda to oppress men. Radical feminists would have to compete with women who are not radical feminists but who also form forcused like minded groups. Third, given that about 43% of college graduates are men. I would say that men would be not less than 43% of those holding political power (given that women will seek political power in large numbers). That means men need only find 8% of women poltical holders (I'm thinking specifically of legislators) to have a majority for their positions. Fourth, in physics there is the principle of "action leads to equal reaction." If women should try to oppress men, men would react to reassert their oppression of women. And given that they are the bigger, stronger, and more aggressive sex, they would succeed. Men oppressed women throughout the whole world down through the ages and they could do so again if they had a mind too. The values of today's world have changed concerning gender and the only thing that would cause the class of men to again oppress the class of women would be if women appeared able to oppress them. However, todays values are that men shouldn't oppress women and women shouldn't oppress men, and I agree with those values. Specifically, both sexes have an equal right to vote.

SteveMar 13 2014 5:26am

This is politics not physics. If radical feminists get control of key positions, don't count on education institutions staying as they are. As a society we educate too many young people for jobs that don't exist, and too many men squander the opportunity for a decent education but get diplomas anyway. Limiting access to women makes a lot of sense--focus on the brighter gender--and relegate men to more repetitive, manual and support tasks. If women like me manage to obtain power, we can move culture and expectations and men can be socialized to accept a subordinate status, as women once were. Of course, we don't have to debate this--it will just play out over the next 8 to 12 years and we can assess the outcome. Hillary is emphasizing programs for girls in the schools even though it is boys that are not doing as well--that is just the door becoming slightly ajar. Discrimination against boys makes sense, is already happening and is about to grow. All seems appropriate to me.

SarahMar 13 2014 8:08am

Also you like to intellectualize a lot--the rush of history often overwhelms reason. Revolutions particularly so inclined As women are superior, and it may take a revolution to put us in charge, and putting our high heels on men's necks to do it. If that's the price, that's the price.

SarahMar 13 2014 9:23am

I understand we're talking politics, not physics. I was making an analogy that I think is valid. If you slap me (action), I'm likely to hit back (reaction), whereas before I had no thought of doing that. If I think you are going to hurt me (action), I will try to stop you even if that means hurting you (reaction), whereas before I had no thought of hurting you. If women try to oppress men (action), men will react to that, probably by re-oppressing women. This action/reaction is basic animal nature. . . A key point of your argument is that "IF radical feminists get control of key positions, then they will be able to oppress men." That's practically a tautology, like "If women who want to oppress men get enough power over men, then they will be able to oppress men." Well, of course! Like, duh. I'm saying I don't think radical feminists will get control of key positions, mainly because radical feminists are a minority of feminists, and self-identified feminists are not all women. For the sake of argument, let us stipulate that women do gain more power than men in business, the professions, and government at all levels and in every form (achieve a matriarchy). That doesn't mean that radical feminists, a minority of all feminists and of all women, will be the ones that will occupy the "key positions." You need to identify the "key positions" and detail why radical feminists in particular will be the ones that occupy those key positions. Otherwise, you're just blustering . . . In addition to the political issues ((1) women achieving a matriarchy and (2) radical feminists being the leaders in that matriarchy), there is the moral issue of the very idea of oppressing men. You've really not justified that. Prima facie, women oppressing men because of their sex is as morally wrong as men oppressing women because of their sex. Your only justification, which you hint at but provide no evidence for, is that all (or most all) men are mentally incompetent compared to women and all (or most all) men are violent and dangerous. Neither of these views is justified. The "rise of woman and decline of man" stems from the educational advantage of females over males. In my second post above, I admitted that "I think women are the superior sex in the modern world which calls for higher education." The educational advantage of women is significant, but not overwhelming and certainly not absolute. 43% of college graduates are men and that means that many, many males have attained educational levels higher than that of many, many women. It is absurd to say that these women should be allowed to vote while the men with greater education and real world achievement should be disenfranchised. As for all men being relegated to housework and manual jobs, that is equally absurd. Many men are doctors, lawyers, novelists, poets, inventors, CEOs, and scientists, which provides undeniable evidence that many men are suited for more than being househubands and manual laborers. Human knowledge and material progress have mostly been because of men. The average male and the average female are equal in intelligence (IQ) for practical purposes. Very recently females have begun to score higher on IQ tests than males but the difference is minuscule and translates to no real world difference that would remotely justify your agenda of relegating men to tasks require little intelligence. More importantly, the IQ bell shaped distribution curves of men and women are different. The curve of males is flatter than that of females, with the result that while more males are born idiots, more men are born geniuses, and for every female born a genius, about four men are born geniuses. It has been and will be the geniuses among us that account for human progress. It is absurd to deny males equal education and opportunity to fulfill their potential, for that would mean denying human progress. That would be suicidal in todayâ€™s world because the very success of our species is causing severe environmental problems that will require geniuses to solve. . . . You say "men can be socialized to accept a subordinate status." Theoretically, you are correct. But I don't think you appreciate what an enormous task that would be. As long as males knew of their historical dominance of women, they would not accept the notion that they were inferior to women and should be subordinate to them. Thus, you radical feminists would have to destroy, re-write, or invent false authorship of all histories, novels, poems, biographies, autobiographies, statues, films, symphonies and other music pieces, TV recordings, essays, etc., etc., etc., that speak of the world wide, historical male dominance of the female. And you would have to do this worldwide, including Moslem countries, not just the U.S.

SteveMar 13 2014 9:21pm

I don't think we would do any of those things. Simply we will replace men at head of institutions, now that physical strength is no longer at a premium, and relegate you to a supporting role. If you object too much we could much further--enslaving men is not out of the question. I would be quite comfortable reducing men to chattel as women once were.

SarahMar 18 2014 10:07am

You took a long time replying. Perhaps you were busy with something else, but I suspect you were trying to think of adequate rebuttals to my argument and came up short. Not being able to put up any rebuttals, you resorted just to reiterating your agenda. You say, "Simply we [radfeminists, presumably] will replace men at head of institutions." "Simply"? Don't think so. Maybe women will become the majority of the heads of institutions, but men will constitinue to the heads of a significant number of institutions (how about 43%, the percentage of college grads that are male?). And the majority of women who do become heads of institutions will not be radfems. . . . I think the AVERAGE woman is superior to the AVERAGE man in many important traits; traits that are crucial in the modern world. The obvious, often observed one, relates to educational achievement. However, there are others -- many tests and survey indicate that the average woman is superior to the average man in traits related to being a good manager. And these traits I think are related to traits that make the average woman more moral than the average man. Women are not just less violent that men (a negative trait), but are, on average, more caring, nurturing, and empathetic (positive traits). These are traits that I, a male feminist, admire in women. And these are the traits that most female feminists admire in themselves, as evidenced in much of feminist ethics with its emphasis on caring, nurturing, and empathy. But radfems seem devoid of these traits, admired in women and admired by most women, including self-identified female feminists. Radfems are masculine (sorry), hierarchical, and seeking to dominate. Real women do not say things like "I would be quite comfortable reducing men to chattel."

SteveMar 19 2014 6:46pm

Actually I am quite busy earning a living and supporting my family.

SarahMar 20 2014 2:02am

I am not sure what the relevance of that is to the prior dialogue, unless you are saying that the lapse of time I mentioned was due to that. I'm curious. Do you have a husband and if so, what is your relation to him? And, are you the sole or primary breadwinner? These are personal questions. Disregard if you find them offensive.

SteveMar 20 2014 5:44am

I was explain that the lapse was not from loss of words--I have a rather responsible job with several hundred employees under me. My husband stopped working long ago to raise our children. I have stated that on other threads.

SarahMar 20 2014 1:43pm

Sarah, I have read some of your other threads. I thought you might be the "Sarah" on those threads; but I don't like to assume. Anyone can use the name "Sarah" and I have seen some instances where someone pretended to be another commenter. And generally, the sex of the commenter is not known for certain. . . . . Sometimes you seem to be reasonable, for a radfeminist, and to present cogent arguments. Other times you make outrageous statements. And, you are not always consistent. So, it is not clear where you coming from. Some outrageous statements you make are things like: "I am all in favor of putting every male under the direct charge of a female" "Every woman should be able to treat the males in her charge as she pleases." "At minimum each [male] should be tagged and implanted with a tracking device so that we may keep track of where they are and control what they all the time. They should work their lives away, etc." "In addition to tagging them and implanting tracking hardware, I would be in favor of requiring each to wear 24/7 a chastity device, metal collar and arm and leg bracelets." "I have no problem imposing a system of absolute control on men." "Certainly anything they [males] do should be only with permission of their mother, wives or sisters." "I won't be happy until all of you [males] are tagged, registered and electronically tracked, with ownership assigned to a competent female." "As property they [males] should be registered and taxed, and when no longer needed for reproductive purposes, altered." "Men should be enslaved--every last one of them" "I want to see every last one [male] tagged, trapped and collared " . . . . . Wow, those are far out statements! I find it difficult to believe that your really mean them, that you are not having some kind of kinky fun, being provocative, seeing what reactions you will get. . . . . . Fortunately, the female supremacy world you portray will never happen. Some, but not all, of the big obstacles to the agenda of women establishing a female supremacy are (1) most women don't want to, (2) the existence of tons of media all over the world in various forms that speak of the world-wide, historic dominate role of males, (3) the fact that so many males outperform some females intellectually, (4) that fact that many males are better persons morally than some females, (5) hypergamy--the fact that most females are attracted to men who are bigger, stronger, more confident, and smarter than they are, and (6) the fact that the edge that the average woman has over the average man is significant but not overwhelming, and of course (7) the fact that men in general are taller, heavier, stronger, and more aggressive than women and don't want to be slaves. The debate we've been having is a case in point for number (3). I am sure you must realize that I have won it; I have outperformed you intellectually. So, then it is absurd that you should maintain that you should have the right to vote, while I, who have outperformed you intellectually, should not have the right to vote. I think all readers, except for radfeminists, will agree to that. . . . . . Since you seem to have run out things to say, I consider the debate closed.

SteveMar 21 2014 8:29am

re (6) I meant "the fact that the EDUCATION edge the average woman has over the average man is significant but not overwhelming."

SteveMar 21 2014 8:51am

Steve, You are not giving all the context of my remarksâ€¦ surprising, you seem more inclined to argue and debate than discuss. Likely just your hormones. Here is a variant of a message I have posted on other threads. It explains my thoughts about why and how women will become the first sex, put men in their place and how society may then be structured (As this site runs all paragraphs together, I have numbered my paragraphs below). 1. Without doubt, women are much more intelligent than men, while men are stronger and cruder in their sensitivity. When strength was more important than brains, men dominated, but now brains are more important, many young men canâ€™t cope and gender roles are reversing. 2. Young women are earning substantially more university degrees, landing better jobs and earning higher salaries than young men. Women are the majority of voters and tend to vote as a block for other women. Among the key positions/fields women will dominate first are the governorships, legislatures, courts and legal professions, and academiaâ€”the rule makers, the rule enforcers and those who articulate what the rules should be. 3. The women who will make the rules and influence public opinion recognize females are more intelligent and have better temperaments than malesâ€”women are the superior gender within the specie. Once in control in politics, law and education women leaders need harbor few reservationsâ€”scientific, ethical or moralâ€”about arranging things in ways that help women dominate in all other fields, socialize boys to accept a subordinate status to girls, and allow women to exercise considerable authority over men. 4. Women will outnumber men by wide margins in managerial, professional and top leadership positions. Declining numbers of men will go to college, and increasing numbers of men will be relegated to the intellectually less demanding, more physical and unpleasant jobs. 5. As their numbers shrink in the professional class, capable well-educated men will face increasing skepticism from female colleagues about their abilities (â€œheâ€™s a man, how quick can his mind be?â€ and â€œworking among women, he is so easily distracted, always thinking about sexâ€”itâ€™s his hormones and he canâ€™t focusâ€). Many unmarried men will live on small incomes, much as single women once did. Less intelligent males will struggle with only erratic employment. Our society will have less need for what men do bestâ€”thoughtless manual labor. 6. In sum, women will be the â€œfirst sex,â€ with men increasingly dependent on the favor of women for decent employment or support through marriage. 7. Potential relationships between the sexes could take many forms, but it may be useful to consider three outcomes that represent points along a continuum. First, reversal in roles but with legal relationships much like those we have now. Women would vastly over represent men in powerful political offices, the courts, executive positions in government and business, and in the professions. At home, women most often would be the primary breadwinners and men would increasingly subordinate their careers to their higher-earning wives, do the housework and cooking, and generally defer to their wives and other women at home and in public. Second, something similar to the 1950â€™s, but with women at work and men as househusbands; the wife the expected to be the breadwinner and presumed head of the household; and both the wife and the husband acknowledging women as the dominant sex, socializing girls prepare for careers and leadership, and boys to defer to girls and prepare for marriage. Third would be a reversion to customs prevalent before the mid-19th century, where women couldnâ€™t vote, own property, were under the supervision of father then husband, and so on. Instead this fate would now befall men who would become marital chattel, disempowered and informally the property of women. 8. I would caution men, the third option is not the end pointâ€”more severe regimes are quite possibleâ€”and what how they end up depends on how well they behave as things change. 9. Already, women are already the primary breadwinner in one-third of marriages and soon then will overwhelming majority. Then men will be put where they belongâ€”wearing aprons in our kitchens, cleaning our houses, doing our laundry, ironing our dresses, diapering our children, running our errands, and whatever else suits our comfort and convenience. Many men will become full time househusbands, and others well deployed as â€œoffice wivesâ€ to powerful female executives. The skirt not pants will be the new rhetorical symbol of authority. 10. Women will expect men to please and cultivate their favor to be chosen as a spouse by a breadwinning wife a position serving a powerful female executive, to eagerly obey women in marriage and at the office, and general defer to the new dominant sex. 11. Some of this is quietly happening among younger couples where the women are better educated and earn substantially more than the men. Once the reversal in gender power is prevalent and widely accepted, women will assert presumptive dominance publically. 12. Where men end up on the continuum of arrangements will depends on how they react to the reversal in gender dominance. How costly will it be for women to pacify males? How freely will men accept their inferior status and the roles women assign them? In return for early capitulation, will males seek favorable terms from their new masters, or foolishly resist and fall victim to complete conquest by women? 13. When well educated and intelligent men wake up and realize reverse discrimination does not merely mean earning $120K instead of $150K a year but that their sons will be a househusbands or secretaries to the women, they will become very angry, uncooperative and sometimes self-destructive. None of that will incline women to offer men generous terms in defining new arrangements. 14. Many men, but especially the lower two quartiles will become poorer, and inclined to become even more lazy, unproductive, passively aggressive, disrespectful, harassing, disruptive, abusive and violent when women become prime. Women in authority will have much less sympathy for the economic factors exacerbating these tendencies than they do for the laziness and sense of entitlement of some poor women. 15. Homemakers have a lot of freedom to manage their time. Unsupervised by their wives working 40 to 60 hours a week, househusbands will not likely handle that freedom well or be as effective as women were in that role. Women wonâ€™t be happy with poorly kept houses, mediocre meals, etc, and nagging, verbally abusive and sometimes violent husbands. 16. All this will unnecessarily burden and threaten women, and women will continually experiment with arrangements between the genders to better ensure men ultimately accept their new status, work diligently, defer, and obey. If a more generous set of arrangements does not accomplish these, gender arrangements will changeâ€”in ways much less pleasant for males. 17. Out of all this, I expect arrangements to slide pretty quickly to something including important elements of the third option. It could afford women the kind of control they need. 18. I sincerely believe those terms are the most men deserve, and it would serve them well to accept them. Intellectually inferior to women, men are a lesser species within a species, and should not be permitted to vote, hold political office or participate in rule making or selecting leaders. However, like women in the 19th century, who were mistakenly thought inferior by men, men would still have legal rights in courts to protect themselves from attack, abandonment and abuse. 19. Yet, I honestly believe such a regime would not be enough to satisfy the legitimate needs of women, because men, especially those in the lower two quartiles, will not accept their diminished status well and a good deal when it is offered. Less intelligent males will not be able to understand the logic in reversal of gender roles, exhibit aimless rage and act violently toward women and their compliant males. Freedom of movement will make controlling the consequences a vexing challenge for women leaders. 20. Ultimately, women may conclude each male should be put under the direct control and care of a responsible woman, and this could well evolve into some kind of chattel state. At minimum men would be identified (e.g., iris scanning and DNA sampling) and tagged at birth, centrally tracked electronically and behavior monitoredâ€”paternalistic women leaders would view this as for menâ€™s own good. 21. Further, the woman in such possession of each male might be able to gift, lease, sell or do whatever they like with themâ€”reducing men to the status of property without legal personality. 22. Women, at least, will be empowered to take whatever steps are necessary to ensure disenfranchised males under their individual supervision behave and work as they shouldâ€”electronic trackers and tethers, drug therapy, corporal punishment, and physical constraints. We will have the scientific justification (biological inferiority) and technologyâ€”electronic and medicalâ€”to impose female rule over men much more effectively than did 19th century males over females. 23. Sounds bizarre but think about how dependent wives have been kept on valium and other drugs over the last 30 or so years to make them compliant, how men freely spanked women and worse until recently, and how men leaving for the Crusades put women in chastity devices. Or even in the early 19th century, men selling their wives to pay debts in rural England. 24. In my mind, making men property and without legal personality is most logical. Why should a woman be responsible for an inferior creatureâ€™s actions and maintenance if she cannot transfer him to his most productive use by gift, lease or sale. If men are biologically inferior, and impose the necessity of bondage by their own threats and violence, how could women not justify imposing this condition to preserve the safety of women and the compliant males? 25. I would be quite happy in your third stateâ€”if it were stable, men behaved and worked as required, deferred, and obeyedâ€”or this fourth, more-severe stateâ€”if that proved necessary. 26. In the end, women will impose whatever it takes to establish a stable matriarchy and men as chattel, and that suits me fine if thatâ€™s what it would take. I believe many men would acclimate to quite nicely. Consider, we will then be able to quickly cull from the population of troublesome males, closely monitor and limit the mobility of the rest of you, and then focus on breeding into men compliant traits. 27. Intelligent malesâ€”the outliers among malesâ€”who acquiesced to matriarchy, would be highly prized. As an owner, for example, I could make certain he received the education and opportunities that maximized my investment and still provide some resources to pacify him. Admittedly, to get as much as I could out of him, I would work him as hard and as much as I could arrange without damaging him but if he was smart he would accept it. 28. He might be better off belonging to me than free in third state, where he would be viewed with suspicion owing to womenâ€™s concerns about their control over the male population. In the latter state, he would be subject to discrimination, frustration and likely work a lot harder but with fewer rewards, or end up a successful womanâ€™s househusband or office wife working long hours at menial tasks for not much. 29. Intelligent male surely like the life they have now but that will not be an option two decades from now, and slavery may treat them better than the other possible stable options. 30. The age of manâ€”like time of dinosaursâ€”has passed; the ascent of woman, as evolution compels , is irreversible; and the inferior sex will either cooperate or be sentenced to an eternity of very mean circumstances.

SarahMar 30 2014 7:04am

Sarah, obviously you have given a lot of thought about the changing roles and power relations between the sexes. So have I. Clearly, we are in the midst of what probably will be the greatest social revolution in human history. So, it warrants attention. . . . . . . . . . . . I am quite willing to discuss the issues involved, in a non-antagonistic spirit. I like that you have provided an enumerated structured for that, moving from basic observations and more or less deductively developing implications and increasingly speculative possibilities. . . . . . . . . . . . . . I propose that we find where we have common ground and where we differ and I propose we follow your structure one or two paragraphs at a time. . . . . . . . . . . . . I think we start with a substantial amount of common ground. To illustrate this before beginning the discussion, I would like to quote from my first post on this thread: â€œSince women are receiving (about) 60% of the bachelor's degrees in the U.S., they (in the U.S.) can be 60% of college professors, pharmacists, doctors, lawyers, judges, supervisors, executives, representative, senators, governors, and future federal presidents. In short, they can establish an American matriarchy. And they should; that would be only fair. I can acknowledge that the average woman is superior to the average man in what counts in the modern world and I can acknowledge that in the majority of marriages in the future, the wife should be the head and the husband should defer to her. However, none of that means that men shouldn't be allowed to vote.â€ . . . . . . . . . . . . . Paragraph (1A). You say, â€œWithout doubt, women are much more intelligent than men.â€ DISAGREE. First of all, you make the mistake of not quantifying your statement. By quantifying, I mean using expressions like â€average,â€ â€œmost,â€ â€œ such and such percent,â€ and â€œmore A than Bâ€ (as more women than men now earn bachelorâ€™s degrees). Without quantification, people invariably fall into the trap of thinking universally, i.e. â€œallâ€ or â€œeveryâ€; e.g., â€œwomen are more intelligent than menâ€ leads to poor logic like â€œevery woman is more intelligent than every man.â€ The latter is then taken as an axiom for further bad reasoning, like men are an inferior species within the human species, which leads to justifying treating men as animals. The slavery of blacks in our country was likewise justified by regarding blacks as â€œnot quite human.â€ Humanity has moved beyond that. Second, the statement, given its proper interpretation of â€œthe average women is much more intelligent than men,â€ is false. On IQ tests there is no significant difference between the IQs of the average woman and the average man. Third, somewhere in your reasoning, you have to take into account the fact that most people who are born geniuses are men. Human progress is largely due to geniuses (the Galileos, Newtons, Darwins, etc.), and that will still be the case in the future. Human progress will continue to depend on genius and most of those geniuses will be men. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Paragraph (1B). You say, "When strength was more important than brains, men dominated, but now brains are more important.â€ AGREE, where â€œbrainsâ€ means â€œeducational attainmentâ€. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Paragraph (1C). â€œGender roles are reversing.â€ AGREE. There is, of course, the issue of how far they will reverse. . . . . . . . . . . . . Paragraph (2A). You say, â€œYoung women are earning substantially more university degrees.â€ AGREE. (duh!) . . . . . . . . . . . . Paragraph (2B). You say, â€œ[Young women are] landing better jobs.â€ AGREE. . . . . . . . . . . . . Paragraph (2C). â€œ[Young women are] earning higher salaries than young men.â€ AGREE BUT . . . This is true of single women in their twenties but will it be true of women in their thirties and later years that they earn higher salaries than their male cohorts? This issue arises because many women opt to forgo job advancement in favor of lesser paying jobs that allow them to be mothers with more quality time for their children. Also, some women actually want to be full time Mommys and homemakers and to be supported by their husbands (do I hear a gasp from radfeminists, some of whom went so far as to deny women had maternal instincts?) Also, most women seem to want â€œto marry upâ€ (hypergamy). All of this reduces the number of women out-earning their husbands. Further, up until sometime in the 70s, the expectation was that the husband would support his wife and their children and wives would accept this at least until after the last child started or left school. Job pay was structured for this. Now, job pay is structured for two-earner incomes. Few men can be the sole breadwinner and provide a decent lifestyle. The same applies to women. Single women with children are at the bottom economically and this is tragic for them and the children. With very few exceptions (movie stars?), it is not a good thing to be a single woman with children. Most women want a husband who substantially helps with family income. Most women are intelligent and realize that anything that hurts men economically also hurts them. . . . . . . . . . . . . Paragraph (2D). You say, â€œWomen are the majority of voters.â€ AGREE. Paragraph (2E). â€œ[Women] tend to vote as a block for other women.â€ NEUTRAL. I have no knowledge of the second part--voting as a block for other women-- but it might be true. Certainly, I know that in 2008 many women voted for Hillary because she was a woman. Then again, I have heard women say they would not vote for a woman just because she is woman. Do you have references? . . . . . . . . . . . . Paragraph (2F). You say, â€œAmong the key positions/fields women will dominate first are the governorships, legislatures, courts and legal professions, and academiaâ€”the rule makers, the rule enforcers and those who articulate what the rules should be.â€ AGREE. But note! â€“ Women dominating these key postions/fields does not mean they will be mostly radfeminists. Regarding *elective positions* in general, I pointed out earlier that women might not want to go into politics because they tend, as a class, to avoid confrontational situations. However, I read that young women are now more ambitious than young men, and so this may carry over to the political arena and there may be a change in womenâ€™s willingness to enter the political fray. I acknowledge that possibility but not likelihood. ----- Re governorships. NEUTRAL. Women may or may not become the majority of governors. If they do, I donâ€™t think they will within the next 25 years. ----- Re *Legislatures*. It has been pointed out to me that women do not have to be the majority in a legislature in order to control it and that women now already control all legislatures because of the womenâ€™s vote. I think this is true. All legislation is now woman-centric. However, being woman-centric is not the same thing as being radfeminist-centric. ----- Re the *legal professions*. AGREE. I do think that women will come to dominate the legal professions and hence the judiciary. The law is a profession where language skills are crucial and there is a ton of evidence that the average woman has better language skills than the average man. Once most lawyers are women, it follows that most judges will be women, including the federal and state supreme courts. I expect this to happen within the next 25 years. ----- Re *academia*. AGREE. Some people use the word â€œacademiaâ€ to mean colleges and universities, but I assume you use the word in its broader sense to include K-12. Women clearly dominate in K-12 as teachers. I believe a higher percentage of principals and vice-principals are women and that eventually they will be the majority. The Department of Education at my Alma Mater is comprised mostly of women, and I suspect that is true or will be true throughout the nation. Since women are earning most of the masterâ€™s degrees and doctorate, it stands to reason that eventually they will comprise the majority of assistant, vice, and full professorships, except probably in mathematics, the physical sciences, computer science, and engineering. ----- *Journalists*. You didnâ€™t mention the important field of journalism, but this is a crucial field women will dominate. Women graduate 5 for every 2 men in journalism. As older male journalists retire, most of their replacements will be women. Women will probably dominate all journalism â€“ TV, radio, print â€“ within the next 20 years. Journalists control what people know, talk about, and think about through the news, and they guide and influence peopleâ€™s thinking through opinion. ----- *Civil Servants*. You also didnâ€™t mention the important area of civil service at all levels of the government. I worked in the federal government for many years and saw many appointed heads of my agency come and go with little effect on the agency. Since most of the important civil service jobs require a college education, more women than men will occupy these jobs, including the middle and top management positions. ---- *POTUS* -- President of the United States. A woman may be elected to this position within the next thee years. ----- *Armed Forces*. This is a critical area you have not addressed. The army is especially important. Historically, armies can unmake and make kings and queens. Our armed forces accept that they are subordinate to civil government, but that acceptance can change. A woman-dominated civil government that became oppressive to men could trigger that change. ---- I would change your classifications somewhat. Women will be the nationâ€™s â€œrule makersâ€ (legislators), â€œrule interpretersâ€ (judges), â€œrule enforcersâ€ (POTUS, governors, civil servants (including District Attorneys and police)), â€œpublic opinion shapersâ€ (journalists), and â€œrule transmittersâ€ (educators, especially K-12, and mothers). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . So, Sarah, as I stated in my first post on this thread, for the most part I grant that our future will be a matriarchy of some kind and that women will probably become the â€œfirst sex.â€ However, I still see men playing very significant roles in government and other key fields. The differences between the average woman and average man in the important traits are significant but not greatly so. The shift in power relations between the sexes will be historic but not oppressive to men.

SteveMar 31 2014 8:11pm

Sarah, after looking over my long post of this morning, I decided I should summarize it. . . . . . . . . . . . . [A] I agree with the following. (a) Mental work requiring education is more important in the modern world than brawn. (b) Gender roles are reversing (but there is the issue of how far they will reverse). (c) Young women are earning about 57% of the bachelorâ€™s degrees and a majority of the masterâ€™s and doctorâ€™s degrees. (d) Young women are landing better jobs than men. (e) Young women are earning higher salaries than young men, but, for various reasons, this may or may not be true of as they get older. (e) Women are the majority of voters. I also agree that women will dominate the following key positions/fields within a couple of decades or so: (f) State and federal legislatures (they already do by power of the womenâ€™s vote and feminist organizations). (g) The legal profession. (h) The state and federal judiciaries including the state and federal Supreme Courts. (i) The K-12 schools, the college and university departments of education, and the colleges and universities, except possibly in mathematics, the physical sciences, computer science, and engineering. (j) Journalism: the college and university departments of journalism and TV, radio, and print news and opinion. (k) POTUSâ€”it will not be long before we have a female President of the U.S. (l) State and federal civil service at all levels. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [B] I am neutral (undecided) about women becoming a majority of legislators and governors. Women may or may not do this within the next couple of decades. In any case, women control these positions through the power of the womenâ€™s vote and the power of feminist organizations. I am also neutral (undecided) about women voting as a block for other women just because they are women. Do you have references? I think women would vote for the candidate who is most woman-centric and that might be a man running against a woman. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [C] I disagree with the following, for the reasons stated: â€œWithout doubt, women are much more intelligent than men.â€ For all practical purposes, the average woman and the average man are equally intelligent. [D] I made two additional observations that you need to include in your radfeminist theory of how the general reversal will play out. (a) Most geniuses are men. (b) The armed forces are dominated by men and ultimately hold the nationâ€™s physical power.

SteveApr 01 2014 6:13pm

1

1Apr 07 2014 7:59am

the armed forces present a challenge but with technology, I believe women can take the lead there too, if necessary.

SarahJun 05 2014 9:25am

On what do you base your belief? Relevance of technology? How?

SteveJun 10 2014 11:46am

Technology takes away the advantages of men's superior physical strength

SarahJun 16 2014 7:19am

I agree, but men control the armed forces and the armed forces possess the technology to win in a "battle of the sexes."

AnonymousJun 16 2014 8:39am

"Anonymous" above was me.

SteveJun 16 2014 8:40am

Another point: an overwhelming majority of of the engineers that create, design, and build technology are men.

SteveJun 16 2014 12:15pm

It's been a month now since I double rebutted your "theory" that women could use technology to gain power over men. Quite the opposite. I assume you have quit the field of contest and so I claim victory.

SteveJul 16 2014 6:52am

JHnt64 Very good post.Really thank you! Great.

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KQAStCotXUhqMTrAug 04 2014 3:35pm

to be honest i personally already vote only for women and only for those My owner instructs me to. I think males should not be allowed to vohe own property, or make decisions, but it is not really up to me, she will make the decision in any referendum.

slave 612Oct 25 2014 10:15am

My wife and I graduated from college in 2006. She received a BS with highest honors in accounting and I received a BS in history with mediocre grades. She got a good paying job as an accountant and I got a job as a bank teller. She went to night school and took online courses and eventually got an MS in accounting, while I became fanatical about bowling. In the summer of 2008 my wife gave birth to a girl. Months later the depression hit and I lost my job, but my wife got a second promotion on her job. So she was better educated than me and had a job and I didn't and her job was good paying. We talked it over and as I had no job and would never have one that paid as hers, we agreed that I should become a househusband and take care of the house and our daughter, and grocery shop, cook, do laundry and all that stuff. In 2011 we had a son, so now I have two kids to take care of. As time went on my wife became more authorotative and I became more submissive. She controlled the money of course and gave me an allowance and treated me like a child if I needed more. She always really controlled the sex, deciding when and when not, but she began controlling it more. She made me promise not to masturbate because she was entitled to good sex from me and that meant my having a good stiff penis. I think sometimes she made me wait a day or two more to get me so horny I would actually kiss her butt and beg for sex. Kristen said it is ridiculous that a man give up his freedom for the sake of his penis but she's a woman and I'm a man and women can control sexual urges better than men and when I get really horny and need release that's the way it is. Two years ago she bought a strapon and uses it on me when she thinks I need to be reminded who's the boss in our relationship. Getting up the rear motivates me to be always submissive. My wife is beautiful and I love her and I love my kids so I don't want to run away, even though I've become a submissive househusband and feel humiliated about that. Even if I did want to run away, I couldn't because I have no money. She has it all. This last primary election in our district a man and a womon were running against each other for office. I said I like the man and then my wife told me I was not allowed to vote because she was going to vote for the woman and didn't want her vote cancelled by mine. I think my situation is the future for most men because girls and women are just superior to boys and men in education ability and all that means: the best jobs and the most money. I think that in a 100 years from now women will the dominant sex and men will be "the second sex" and they wont let us vote.

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